Exactly how hot is hot ? ?

( by; Brad Guth / IEIS    updated: March 13, 2003 )

I know that in more ways than one, I've stated most all of this before, but for those still unable to recall or simply unwilling to read through, I'll try once again to re-stipulate some fundamentals regarding my discovery. This page was an older rendition of what the newer page of "heat-is-relative" has to offer.

First of all;  I never specified that life was absolutely still functioning on Venus, nor that we should try to go there in person (VL2 will suffice), as I merely was hoping that we (America) weren't being too late (again), especially since I'm not convinced that of any dying population would have been leaving their metro airship so thoroughly exposed, with that overhead hanger/silo door wide open at that. At worst, by now (13+ years after the fact) they're all toasty dead, as perhaps thanks to our NASA's swift thinking, as expiring within just the last decade (this certainly wouldn't have been the one and only time when we ignored the plight of others). At best, they are very much alive and kicking, wondering exactly how pathetically stupid Earthlings really are, especially when Venus can view Earth up close and personal every 18 months, if need be through utilizing that high flying metro airship/observatory and, they probably even realize that we've crudely mastered space travel, which could obviously become a real concern, especially if they're seeing and/or heard of what's been going on lately.

And by the way; of anything becoming smart enough as to survive on Venus, even if that should include a 75 km capable high flying rigid airship, is not something requiring the same intelligence as to their having masted radio communications nor even space travel, after all, they do have their hands or whatever pretty much full of just surviving within a truly difficult situation. After all, Darwin and I would be rather surprised and obviously somewhat disappointed if they haven't masted visual communications via light (no stinking telescope is needed to view upon Earth from above those nighttime clouds of Venus), as that form of universal communications is as old as life itself, where as to any decent nocturnal sort, sight and sensitivity to light could and should be everything, of all that's needed to communicate.


1 - It's hot and nasty on Venus;  (duh, no kidding)  Seems I certainly knew of that from my high school text books (as well as from a good number of pre 1960'ish vintage astronomy books). I also recall of more recent satellites and eventual probe explorations undertaken by the U.S. as well as the U.S.S.R. that further catalogued upon various thermal considerations, where some of these findings varied greatly from my original understanding, however, mostly as to trending thermal considerations ever downwards, especially as to those readings of the upper atmosphere, as those readings were rather quickly gathered as each probe plunged towards the surface. Finally there were a number of researchers discovering that certain climate and thermal variations were in fact happening more aggressively than previously understood, as in between various atmospheric layers (no real surprises here, just learning that a whole lot of convection and mostly conduction mode heat exchanging was going on). Next, there has been some distinctions as to there being a somewhat greater thermal difference between the illuminated side as compared to the nighttime side, as either side manages their fairly long seasonal impact as well as transition of 2900 hours worth of either day or night season.

At 10 km it's surface is potentially 600K and that's certainly hot (somewhat cooler at night, perhaps a surface at 550K and of the atmosphere likely becoming as little as 500K along with hosting more O2, which even with sufficient O2 is still damn humanly hot and nasty, yet perhaps that's only toasty warm to that of your standard nocturnal Venus lizard folk)

2 - Nighttime on Venus is however becoming somewhat more interesting; as even I've uncovered perfectly good research by others, offering upon the contention that there are occurrences of rather significant atmospheric energy releases (further examples of planetary and atmospheric cooling or at least indications of some rather considerable thermal recycling as well documented by IR imaging, with each re-examination of the available data pulling ever downward upon those nighttime temperature issue) and, of those nighttime clouds becoming somewhat thinner and of lessor altitude and/or more dispersed as in having greater contrast of densities and/or at the least more transparent. Another valid contention has nearly always been, these thick clouds have been defined as partially ultraviolet (UV) transparent, obviously far more so then of infrared (IR).

I don't want to continually be the only spoil sport but, a little UV is a good thing, at least UV/c and of near UV spectrums are very important to certain species and especially to nocturnals, as for seeing things in the dark (somewhat like Earth's star light enables nightvision) as well as for the obvious visual communications, as in "duh" once again, as that's my refering to life as we already know it and, not even for considering the Darwin evolved nocturnals of what could and should be existing on Venus.

The actual amount(s) of nighttime surface illumination as well as for cooling, especially at specific elevated sites, is still being sought after. However, it is certainly relatively dark as well as much cooler at night and it has to be more so cooler at greater elevations. After a few hundred hours of being in pitch black darkness, those Venus soils and rocks do in fact lose/radiate some if not a great deal of their energy into that thick (highly thermally conductive CO2) atmosphere, where in certain instances we could be talking about as much as 100 fold more conduction than here on Earth, at least 55 times greater if that were based solely upon the density/buoyancy difference. Those extensive 10+km territories (that's roughly 33,000' and a tad bit higher then Mount Everest, not including other nearby 17+km mountains on Venus), which are situated further North and thereby offering environments somewhat cooler yet, this is where I believe that such a large expanse of well elevated territory may ultimately represent a perfectly darn good location for those attempting to survive on such a greenhouse planet (if it's been getting hot, I sure as hell would not care to be living down in their death valleys).

3 - For life to exist (certainly NOT as we know of and most likely not anywhere as arrogantly stupid as Earth humans); to have been created or originated from whatever circumstances, then to have existed and sufficiently evolved, perhaps further aided by a (well motivated) good deal of technology and, most certainly by the availability of there having the option of reaching higher/cooler ground, of those areas well suited for accommodating underground access and otherwise offering that of a tolerable opportunity so as to continue their living, then obviously as to constructing sufficient surface structures of considerations that would have further accommodated their achieving adequate environment development and thereby life support capability (CO2-->CO/O2 as well as air conditioning), where that energy application of procuring essential minerals and raw element resources should be considered a given, along with subsequent energy production as into electricity, by which all of this servival effort would then obviously further support (among life essentials) such basics as having constructed thermally protected local surface transports, as well as sufficiently long range (global capable) air transports. So that as their sun rises, those privileged could board such an airship in order to seasonally migrate to their sunset camps or alternate sunset cities (as situated and elevated at most likely 180º from each other, as the two I've located seem to be).

Obviously this airship is no simplistic hot air balloon as frequently proposed by so many of my pathetic opponents that keep drifting off into their stooper of being so totally arrogant as well as just plain stupid. The gasses of H2 as well as plentiful N2 are what's making this rigid airship's buoyancy and not least of all, this is not rocket science, it's merely a survival of the fittest being accommodated by common sense. Obviously common sense hasn't been applied within our Club NASA ever sinse those Apollo days, as otherwise a good number of folks would still be alive and, this country would be trillions of dollars out of debt and most likely not at war (again).

4 - Once again (from the top) and from the very beginnings of my discovery efforts;  I never ever stated upon us wossy ass humans would or should ever become accommodated on Venus, at least not without added protection and one hell of a lot of air conditioning (If there's no ice, I'm certainly not going there). That's not to say that Venus evolution has not fully addressed those concerns (including that of N2/H2 insulation and of subsequently making a little ice, if not dry ice). With even fairly primitive energy resources, nearly anything is possible (especially including air conditioning and the making of ice in hell) as on Venus, as with regard to most any substantial planet, there exist minerals and certain chemical deposits (likely including atomic elements) and otherwise sufficient surface as well as atmospheric worthy elements (unless you're Mars, where there's almost no atmosphere to work with), to be including some rather substantial differentials of vertical draft as for creating vertical CO2 wind as well as purely thermal and pressure differential powered turbines, kinetics quite worthy of producing enormous amounts of energy. But, like I said, this planet is not suited for dumb ass Earthlings, especially arrogant pro-NASA Borg types that can't think for themselves, as first of all, on Venus you have to be sufficiently smart, essentially quick as to shutting that door behind you and, quite possibly somewhat nicer then we've been able to get away with here on Earth (becoming an outcast or being homeless on Venus is not an option).

5 - Get yourself used to the idea that the planet Venus was most certainly not always where it is and, neither was Earth;
At some earlier time (excluding terraforming), the planet Venus (upon it's entry or creation into our solar system) may have initially become married to Earth's L1, with our two planets mutually parked gravitationally at the combined EL1 + VL2, which at that time might have represented a separation of roughly 3 million kilometers (perhaps somewhat lesser). At that separation distance, Venus would have been blocking 12 to 15% of our sun, especially if the two of us were somewhat further out from where we are today. Within this situation, Earth would have become a fairly cold place, in fact damn cold, as in somewhat "ICE AGE" like cold. Venus on the other hand would have obtained full solar access and perhaps a little other advantage, promoted by that of being parked so close to Earth, by which some of those on Venus may have basically managed to have jumped ship (employing a little lunar gravitational sling shot technology) prior to their otherwise home world being sucked towards the sun (it seems you never know about these things and apparently we never will if our NASA has any say). There is even another remote possibility, that our moon once belonged to Venus and/or that a much larger moon (Mercury) was somehow involved.

With all of that potential gravitational mass causing unwelcome internal solar system disruption, all sorts of orbital imbalances and subsequent excessive core super-heating, it is entirely possible that our beginnings were not so isolated or so ordained as some might like to think. In fact, religion may not have even have been invented yet (too busy just staying alive), even though thousands of soles (at least a few soles) from Venus may have been somehow migrating onto Earth before all hell broke loose by sending Venus closer to the sun, only then would those which survived their journey to this Earth would have quickly invented a religion, so that they could be conveniently forgiven for basically beating the living snot out of those late comers or perhaps, even of killing off whomever was already here. For all good argument intent, those new religions certainly could have been Cathar or Muslim, as perhaps going by our most bloody history of the worst possible crimes upon humanity is where the blood thirsty catholic reforms of christianity were formulated.

6 - Regardless how hot Venus has recently become; at some past time (perhaps when Venus first arrived, then for some time thereafter), it was simply not so hot and, those sufficiently evolving and/or specifically created (terraformed) just for Venus were most certainly capable of accomplishing things.

As for examples; those massive reservoirs in the North West area of "GUTH Venus", four of them are closely associated with each other, as grouped (above ground) into a clover shaped arrangement and then thoroughly connected to a somewhat larger individual reservoir via a long aqueduct of sorts and, that individual reservoir is clearly holding something fluid and/or mud like because, it's clearly showing us a dark (SAR equivalent of something fluid) center. The actual color of that fluid is not necessarily black, as it could just as well be white or even clear. A fairly rough calculation of their potential capacity represents something like 50 million cubic meters worth (a more sizable estimate places that capacity at 500 million m3) and, there are certainly other indications of numerous round structured reservoirs throughout this discovery site.

7 - Excuse me critics;  microbes simply do not go about building multi-million cubic meter capacity complex reservoir systems; microbes don't further artistically arrange such items into clover formations and furthermore as to bother interconnecting them in a geometrical/symmetrical manner to another reservoir, which otherwise only further defies the logic of gravity and all other know erosion considerations (at least none such other natural reservoir clusters have been catalogued elsewhere and, I'm not all that sure we have anything remotely similar here on Earth that's even man made that's this complex). Therefore, something a whole lot bigger then any microbe and, likely having a fairly bad day at that, was sufficiently motivated into accomplishing such a massive task. You would think that even this little insignificant portion of my discovery area should become significant, especially when nearly all of my opponents stipulated that "everything in this image was purely natural and otherwise showing absolutely nothing whatsoever artificial". I do recall, I was also being staunchly informed that everything within my selected image area was entirely common to virtually every other portion of Venus. Well folks, I've looked for hundreds of hours at that issue and, I presume others have too, so I am to guess this complex looking compound along with it's highly sophisticated reservoir like features (so far, the one and only such example) is perhaps actually NOT the least bit common and, I'm to guess those NASA wizards and their army of pro-NASA supporters (Borgs) are either totally blind, arrogant bigots, totally lying or as stupid as hell (perhaps all four).

8 - Something about all that "lava flow";  I've been informed by supposed NASA experts, as well as from their official moles at "space.com", over and over, that the primary channel in my image was something lava formed. Please do help me out here, as I can't seem to locate a sufficient vent or group of vents worthy of initiating this much flow/erosion consideration, let a lone to have managed such a massively long, deep and expanding (erosion depletion rille like) flow path, formulating into such a worthy Venus style Grand Canyon which eventually culminates into such a massively large (presumably bone dry) lake bed consideration. Going by NASA's own records, I'll have to guess also that such lava flowing and mountain range circumventing road like behaviour somehow further explains about that "fluid arch" consideration not existing as well as the community of a complex cluster of structures are some how those of purely natural formation (anything may be possible, as long as gravity isn't involved nor common sense but, somehow I don't think so).

9 - A little something about which came first, the Kentucky fried chicken or the fried egg, or perhap air travel over highways;  If you grew up on such a toasty hot planet, especially where that temperature was even hotter as you traveled down from those mountains, as well as becoming somewhat more toxic and/or CO2 at lower atmospheres, what would you accomplish first?.

Think of this opportunity as something like being here on Earth, if you are situated on an island, your choices are to try walking or driving from island to island or (duh) how about using a ship, but that ship could be an airship, as in flying. Which mode of transportation would you concentrate upon developing and/or focusing your resources upon first, as to cross a wet and stormy ocean, that of creating a structurally complex and somewhat highly energy inefficient surface transport capable of withstanding what nature had to through at you and/or perhaps a submarine capable of surviving thousands of additional external psi, or how about that of an air conditioned airship (being that you could obtain 65+ kg of buoyancy per cubic meter if using hydrogen, and then also knowing that it's substantially cooler as you ascended and, that the upper atmosphere is becoming even more life sustaining (increased O2% levels) plus the energy expenditures are those fairly minimal as to moving yourself along. This choice is totally yours (damn, I simply forgot that you're from Earth, edgucated as one of our crack NASA wizards, as such stupid as hell, so you simply would cry for someone else [taxpayers] to fix everything, as you would otherwise die right on the spot, and oddly that option is entirely OK by me because, there's certainly been no great loss to Earth's humanity).

10 - I've stated previously, on numerous occasions, that obviously the planet Venus was not always so hot and nasty (I'm not alone as many others tend to agree);  The transition from being somewhat green and perhaps tropically lush (at least in certain locations and say below 300K) along with whatever oceans or lakes of warm water took some thousands if not millions of years to boil itself down, that is baring some unforeseen instantaneous space rock disaster or from such as a catastrophic solar flare or other system disruption from a bully newcomer planet such as Earth or Mercury entering the seen, as other then that there was certainly sufficient geological time for whatever life to have evolved, so that eventually any developing greenhouse effect would have given sufficient time and subsequently motivation, as to either doing something constructive about it, or die trying. Tell me, what would you have done? (I think I already know; you would have probably filed your complaint with the EPA, then waited for someone else, like one of those NASA wizards, to fix everything).


Evolution in spite of NASA

The large as well as complex structured looking patterns discovered at "GUTH Venus" are simply far too compelling as to be knowingly ignoring their interrelationships. Nature doesn't create infrastructure nor go about defying gravity.

For some brief examples;  those massive quarry sites situated just North of what can only be that of a substantial bridge crossing their "Grand Canyon". At this canyon or rille spanning bridge location, the span is conservatively something like 900+ meters and the depth is at least 450 meters (certain critics will multiply those estimates by a factor of 3). Adjoining this bridge, there are rock like considerations on either bank, the upper West end looks as though there has been a tunnel created, as directly to the left is what looks as a road or rail bed as representing a passage continuation which had a good reason to circumvent a fairly large mountain range. Along this road are signs of other excavations, then a switch back as would have been required in order to have reached the upper mountain territories (remembering always, that going upward is nearly always a good thing on Venus and that down is bad).

If you wanted to believe all this is somehow natural, then you need to become somewhat flexible about gravity and the logistics of applying known physics and geology that haven't been recorded as ever happening, as well as for being completely devoid of any possible considerations of there being evolution and/or creation (terraforming if you will) happening elsewhere. In other words, your creator is not only the greatest one, but was so freaking great that any efforts by other life to have existed or evolved elsewhere was intentionally snuffed out just for the sporting fun of it (sort of exactly like how the catholics snuffed out those Cathars). As otherwise, Venus would have to be holding the only record of such a massive as well as freely suspended lava flow (formulating against all known laws of gravity and physics) as for horizontally launching itself so as to cross such a massive canyon/rille (oddly by some opposing estimates exceeding 2.5 km), then bothering as to creating a tunnel through solid rock instead of merely flowing around and/or downward into the channel or big ass ditch, then as for doing a little further creative excavating along they way, making for itself a sharp switch-back just for the holy heck of it and then having all of this along with strong associations to artificial looking attributes on either end of it's travels, so as to being logically available to anyone needing to transport whatever to/from their reservoirs, those rock quarries or just mining and airship considerations as transporting individuals and items to/from their structured community, as situated to the lower South and South East side of that "Grand Canyon" or big ass rille if you like.

By the freaking way (BTFW);  about that structured looking community, besides hosting some rather strikingly grand sculptured accomplishments, including parabolics, causeways and on and on, besides having developed some rather large and truly capable looking accommodations (indicating those as so large and massive perhaps because of being constructed from the material extracted from those massive quarry sites and, subsequently transported over that suspension bridge), as for living on Venus you simply can't have too much structural protection surrounding yourself (the more mass the better). Perhaps adding a little further insult to this injury, as situated just above these primary township like structures is what can only be that of a significant airport carved and/or constructed out of nowhere but, more so that of existing in a seriously rugged mountainous terrain, clearly indicating equipment on the tarmac at that. This formation of a fairly long and obviously intentionally flat surface among otherwise typically rough tectonic mountainous terrain is not even so simplistic, as it's clearly complex by offering multiple sub bays that show as having (good grief) rounded corner features, then other worthy considerations equally associated with the rational function of any such intentional airport, as well as being logically situated with fairly good regard to those multiple as well as relatively large building like structures directly to the South (that's called rational associations).

I am terribly sorry folks but;  if you're still so thoroughly snookered (brain washed and/or Borg assimilated) where you still can't see any of this Venus stuff, nor even realize upon the possibilities of other life NOT as we currently know of, then you are truly being selectively and/or perhaps intentionally ethically blind, as well as a thoroughly incompetent if not an immoral person (sub-human) and, otherwise capable of committing murder on behalf of your views or at least supporting those which are capable because, you've become so freaking blind as to what's otherwise so obvious. The inability of seeing what is so obvious is called denial (in legal terminology it's referred to as 2nd or even first degree manslaughter, in some states it's recently become the very same qualification as second degree murder if you merely stand by and do absolutely nothing to intervene in a bad situation) and, it's a very serious human sickness, that which many leaders such as Hitler, the Pope and now Bush have capitalized upon in order to carry out their agendas and of whatever deeds (good or bad).

The majority of those following in Hitler's steps apparently saw nothing wrong whatsoever (that's including a good number of our big ass American banks), just as those at ENRON/Andersen, WorldCom and even MicroSoft equally saw nothing wrong happening, nor that of our government doing whatever it took in order to support and/or orchestrate the 6-Day war and/or that of our efforts at subduing the USSR equally saw absolutely nothing whatsoever wrong and furthermore, we obviously contemplated upon no consequences and, that somehow 9/11 was oddly if not conveniently not of any result(s) of anything we ever did in the past (like bull pucky), as somehow these attacks were entirely unprovoked and totally unrelated to absolutely anything we as America were ever associated with or failed to do on behalf of humanity, perhaps you and your "status quo" friends would even like to believe that our attackers were actually planning upon taking out those nasty French/Canadian bastards and, simply got lost and confused at the very last minute. Oddly, some how I do not really think we can continue being so smug and dangerously arrogant, but then that's only my distorted perversion and not yours.

Trying hard to pretend that our NASA is somehow God like is seriously dangerous stuff if not immoral and/or criminal;  Standing by while others are doing your dirty work on behalf of your elected views will not exclude you nor others from the consequences. What goes around comes around and, those deeds (good or bad) of our NASA/NSA/DoD are no exception. Ask yourself; Can we afford another 9/11 and to continue along this distructive path, year after year?

Ask yourself another simple question, as in what is our NASA so afraid of?  What's so terribly wrong with having a little (near zero cost) re-exploring or merely the review of the possibilities for other life NOT as we know it existing on Venus?  and; Of what possible legitimate motivation(s) would any true researcher/scientist have that would so frighten them away from this challenge?

Skewed truth(s) can become a serious form of unjustifiable denials, as the alternative of accepting moral responsibility for our past will soon become too much for many that have chosen to being so blind to the truth, as to what's been going on for decades. The grief and responsibility burdens will be substantial, however, we simply can not proceed with any dignity until this dirty past and the course set has been corrected. Such orchestrated and subsequently persuasive lies are having their direct lethal impact upon some of those directly involved and, the even more so lethal impacts upon our civilian world needs to end. This ultimate ruse (the cold-war and subsequently the Apollo layer and so on until today we have Iraq and North Korea as being next) must eventually be revealed and something done about eliminating the very root of the cause (most having to do with regard to American greed, arrogance and subsequent power being at the root of nearly every horrific thing humans have ever perpetrated upon others, not entirely unlike what the catholics and their pope did to the Cathars).

What I believe has become clearly at stake, with regard to opposing the discovery of whatever is past and/or present day life of some form of existence on Venus, and now the concerted as well as orchestrated "spin" and ongoing "damage control" effort as to foil upon every possible avenue for those capable of doing what's right, has been otherwise suppressing many truth(s), seems this sort of disclosure should be ringing your freaking bell. Unfortunately, there is far more than sufficient motive and a very great deal at risk for those which perpetrated our cold wars, pulled off the Apollo ruse and presently are controlling most positions of power.

I'm only sorry that I've come along so far, only to have been so late with the uncovering of the news that our NASA (among other agencies) has not been the upstanding community which Americans would like to believe in. It's not that a lot of NASA's individuals are all that bad, just grossly naive (if not totally in denial) and otherwise frightened to death as to oppose the establishments, for fear of reprisals and of much worse things.


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created: April 3, 2002

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