The very idea, or rather insistence or perhaps merely another tactical delay by those desiring to bash everything in sight, that somehow radio must have come along before the egg (before fundamental capabilities of necessary evolution, intelligence and of simply refining upon the art of one's surviving) is yet another terrific example of the sort of orchestrated "spin" and "damage control" running seriously amuck. Either that or, those expecting my reply as to being of astonishment, as though I never once thought of such a thing as radio, are going to be pathetically disappointed (again).

Where all along, I have been the one fully considering the possibilities of advanced communications (just not via radio), such as easily generated xenon beams for transmitting your basic binary code and/or these days of Quantum Binary Packets utilizing narrow spectrums of UV in order to once again take advantage of what's (God forbid) affordably obtainable, as in "off the shelf". Where oddly, the opposition to even this facet of universal species communication has been exactly the same negativism as upon everything else associated with Venus and, I'll suppose equally of whatever David Sereda has to offer will become trashed by all those having the "right stuff". Not that any hot and nasty planet like Venus would have need to discover and/or implement anything UV (let alone radio), other than of internal and/or local requirements for efficiently dealing with a truly bad situation, or perhaps not so bad if you're acclimated/evolved into an obviously superior being (Islamic no less). However, if any planet ever needed to devise upon a method of communicating outside of their world, the UV spectrum certainly holds a good deal of promise that seems a whole lot more likely to succeed than struggling with horribly inefficient radio.

To mention upon only a couple of worthy examples of NOT radio;
Those Romans and Greeks (without even any sort of greenhouse incentives) certainly managed to construct a rather large number of massive bridges, aqueducts as well as a number of other far more massive structures (including reservoirs), then further created complex community infrastructure, all of which was accomplished without radio. In fact, they each utilized reflected solar illumination as well as good old fire as to signal and communicate over great distances. I do believe hot air and H2 buoyancy was another discovery/creation considerably prior to anything radio and, that's in spite of our atmosphere being horribly thin (buoyancy impudent) as well as incredibly turbulent as compared to anything Venus has to offer below those thick clouds, plus we simply have far too much of that nasty O2 laying about, which only makes for a great number of things openly combustible if not explosive, certainly highly corrosive (especially corrosive when there's the other nasty consideration of having way too much H2O along with any number of other element cocktails) and otherwise a serious load of downright testy other considerations to contend with whenever there's an atmosphere of N2/O2 about, like thousands of daily global lightning strikes, massive killer tornadoes along with a few other little inconveniences like those relatively frequent ice ages, then don't ever forget about those other gravity induced affects of creating active platetonics producing all those terrific earthquakes, devastating volcanos and all of those associated matters that seem to never go away. With our help, several of such occurrences are only getting worse, like how about global warming and the possibility of Earth being infected with Venus's upper atmospheric microbes or better yet will be that of our intentionally retrieving those radiation proof Mars microbes.

I've been rethinking;  perhaps all that our good old Earth has been truly missing, is for any one of those dozen or so annual near-miss Earth killer space rocks to target upon Earth's "RESET" button, then we'll all get the opportunity as to start things over, except for those we've already managed to kill off over really pathetically stupid and immoral provocations by our infamous CIA/NSA/DoD, and/or simply out of our global energy greed, arrogance and/or a fundamental lack of respect towards almost any other humanity (especially if they've got oil and, obviously I'm discovering if they're branded as anything ET), as well as for our insatiable disregard for the environment in general.

So, just for the heck if it, I'll totally concur that radio could certainly exist on Venus, perhaps best suited as an already toasty vacuum tube/valve format sort of thing (even though a pure CO2 filled tube might do just fine and dandy) but, still we have the radio wave propagation considerations, in which a good percentage of frequencies simply are not going to sufficiently penetrate those thick and relatively dense clouds, which is actually a darn good thing. Very low frequencies can penetrate or propagate through much of their planet surface, even AM ultrasonic spectrum can be effectively applied or that of extremely high (radar) frequencies can (if sufficiently focused) propagate through those clouds but, the vast majority of radio frequencies are going to be efficiently trapped or reflected between the surface and somewhere within or below those highly electrolytic clouds. This trapped propagation issue is certainly a darn good thing for their global communications but, not worth jack as far as contacting another planet, especially any thoroughly stupid planet like Earth. I mean; what's the point?

December 18 (update);  I've been further re-thinking (that's always been a bad sign).  Perhaps the best RF range for anyone situated on Venus is that below 1 Mhz, such as VLF/LF spectrums and even to be considering the use of ultra-sonic (10 Khz to 200 Khz) could become extremely interesting, as such lower frequencies can effectively be mechanically generated and, as such radiating out from a sufficiently configured parabolic could in fact circumvent their relatively silent globe. By further reconsidering the spectrum of what's below 50 Khz, that sort of ultra-low RF and/or acoustics is going to carry quite nicely within such a quiet and acoustically conductive environment (65+kg/m3 of relatively stable CO2 is essentially like thin or light water, except without nearly as much thermal variation nor turbulence per km), such as exactly what that nifty density of nearly pure CO2 has to offer, as signals would be effectively captive and/or reflected between those high density clouds and that of the electro-magnetically noise free surface, as disturbed perhaps only by the lower frequency acoustics of volcanic eruption and lava flow activity and/or other life supporting similar technology (vertical CO2 differential driven utility power stations, though their rhythm or frequency of what your typical radial power turbines should produce, though this form of noise should be well below 1 KHz as well as that of any significant power distribution of DC format being nearly undetectable. Any 1/2 wavelength antenna array suited for 20 Khz is certainly quite long (7500 meters) and, of any directional antenna arrays would require at least 1.5 wavelength (22,500 meters). Although, as long as space is not any problem, such antenna formats are going to become extremely effective, certainly electro-magentically efficient and about as low-tech as RF communications ever needs to get. Unfortunately, unless we're situated on the surface along with the appropriate transceiver technology, we're not likely to detect a darn thing, certainly of nothing whatsoever is going to propagate itself through those dense electrolytic clouds, unless that RF source is created in the mega watt range and at similar to UHF/S band frequencies.

Of course, with great amounts of much higher frequency radio energy (if that were focused toward Earth), those could certainly do the trick, however folks, our own recorded history should clearly have indicated that such radio technology may for one thing not even exist and, even if it did exist, the needs for such power levels and of sufficiently higher frequencies is not likely going to be of any priority for those attempting to survive on such a toasty hot greenhouse planet, as they might actually have somewhat better things to be doing than playing around with any frivolous radio technology (consider also, if they've received much of anything emitted from Earth, they must surely realize that we're a lost cause and seriously dangerous to associate with;  there's certainly nothing like jumping out of the frying pan and into the fire as to getting your attention). So, I'm thinking they might actually know better than to be letting on about their existence, where it's certainly better off being a little hot rather than dead as a result of whatever our warlord Bush might do.

Regarding such electronics suited for the toasty environment of Venus;

For one thing, it may be a tad difficult or simply impractical for those of Venus to achieve more then a few watts at nearly any radio frequency and besides, as for whatever global Venus communication might need, perhaps only a few watts of 5 mhz or lower frequency is going to become their global coverage, as the planet offers little if any magnetic distortions to contend with, there's apparently no recorded lighting and thereby little if any atmospheric static and, practically nothing within that lower atmosphere as to absorb/attenuate RF, then to remember that those thick/dense clouds are seriously chuck full of an effective electrolyte that's very conductive to a fairly wide spectrum of frequencies, such as those below UHF, thereby very reflective towards most radio communications. Any amount of RF leakage that's potentially detectable by Earth or even by that of a sophisticated spy satellite is going to not only be minimal but thoroughly scattered if transmitted from their surface. Equally, as for Venus to be receiving anything Earth is going to be testy at best, unless we're talking about seriously focussed and thereby high energy pumped S or X band, which is hardly something life on Venus would ever have developed any need for.

As for the radio (egg) before massive structures and of whatever rigid airship argument;  Certanly that's possible but, there's nothing fundamentally radio about engineering and constructing any bridge, nor radio about much other mechanical engineering or even of anything aerodynamic, such as for constructing and operating nighttime cloud gathering airships (for their subsequent extraction/distillation of H2O) nor of offering massive transports of other rigid airship formats. Construction and of having fluid filled reservoirs requires no radio nor is there a radio requirement for that of justifying the existance of those multiple rock quarries sites. The consideration of parabolics could just as well or more likely be for obtaining solar IR/UV energy considerations as for anything radio. Even if there were radio, at certain frequencies a mere watt of radiated signal, if sufficiently directed, could nearly circumvent their globe, with less then a pico watt being detectable as leaking through those clouds (it's unlikely that anything Earth based would be capable of detecting much of anything RF, however, certainly possible that a sufficiently sensitive satellite based receiver based at Venus L2 (VL2) could detect upon a pico watt, however, there has not been one such instrument ever deployed with such radio spectrum capabilities in mind). Obviously a highly cost effective VL2 situated satellite could easily deploy a sufficiently massive high gain antenna and otherwise efficiently communicate via CW/FM or binary packets within the near-UV spectrum, by implementing efficient xenon or solid state lasers.

As you can see, I'm not the one excluding upon radio (never have), just being practical and thinking of what's most likely important to those surviving on Venus. That's why I've concentrated upon the visual stimulus approach (besides all of the efficiency aspects) as nearly all recorded forms of life seem, in one way or another, to universally respond to light (some can even see in what we'd consider total darkness while others may generate there own illuminations). Our interpreting and/or educating whatever is there, as to communicating with us, this is not such a complex issue, certainly not of any recourse as to justify so many bashing this opportunity into the ground over the past two years, nor as for justifying our continually wasting decades along with hundreds of billions upon humanly unobtainable goals and/or upon further cloaking on behalf of NSA/DoD agendas. Obviously, as I'm considered by my opponents as a misguided individual, my motivation and morals are totally off base from reality as well as for what's right and morally justified, after all, the recent Nobel awards have gone to those essentially responsible for killing tens of thousands with no end in sight and, other similar awards have been bestowed upon individuals which totally support the present direction and focus of political as well as technology agenda missusage, so who am I to be researching and subsequently stating otherwise, such as stipulating there's life (perhaps NOT as we know it) existing on Venus?

This is what I think, should radio be involved;  Besides that of minimal power requirements of VLF, low, medium and short wave technology, I would not be at all surprised if there's become a relatively low energy VHF application of relatively broad bandwidth (like 10 mhz) and perhaps of some compound of binary phase shifted pulse/packet as well as frequency shift/modulated method that obtains the greatest performance per watt and thereby the best possible multi-channel reception by equally efficient SHD3DTV surround sound receivers, not to mention that their binary language and/or quantum packet codes will not be so easily detected nor recognized by anything Earth. Besides all of that; detecting live lizard smut televised by alien methods could seriously overload our processors, not to mention our lechery (possibly 1+ GB/frame, as perhaps in 18000 X 9000 32 bit format). Such low power (parabolic directed and received) VHF of 1 watt could do quite nicely without much if any appreciable RF drifting through those clouds.

Fortunately, as for satellite based radio transceiving, even of MW/SW multi band as well as multi frequency scanning receivers along with auto-phase-locking transmitters are not such a space nor energy consuming challenge however, of those wide RF spectrum MW and SW gain antennas are still a bitch (VLF is simply out of the question unless the idea of trailing miles of antenna is within the brain cells of those configuring such satellite technology). Because Earth's upper atmosphere is not dense nor RF reflective, not even the best of whatever NSA has up there is worth squat for anything Venus. You can basically buy "off the shelf" electronics but, as for those broad band antennas of any appreciable gain (like 30 db would be nice) simply do not exist and, even if they did, that sort of multi band high gain antenna is going to be extremely big, complex and still not all that effective at any one frequency. So, unless we initially know what frequency to apply for, there's little chance of obtaining much over a 6 db gain for any such wide spectrum antenna and, 6db is simply poop when it comes down to receiving weak signals obtained from outside that "sphere of silence" surrounding Venus (remember that, being exterior to that RF shielding cloud layer sphere surrounding Venus, there's a rather serious infusion of solar RF noise throughout much of the radio spectrum, thus background noise is a rather significant issue). Placement of any such transceiving capable satellite as zipping about Venus in that typically elliptical orbit is yet another dilemma as for attempting to capture such potentially weak signal packets, whereas for the stationary VL2 platform, at least there's the opportunity as to focus much larger antenna arrays upon specific zones of interest (like downtown "GUTH Venus"), then there's also the 95% solar avoidance that's seriously diminishing the levels of RF background noise.

All of this "radio before the egg" stuff is still seriously flawed with any respect to applying anything that's visual, as light has always been the ultimate and most universal format of communications. Need I remind you, that for thousands and perhaps millions of years prior to the discovery of radio, Earth's life was going about communicating quite nicely via light, after all, most did the usual thing of awakening and going about there daily life cycle, based significantly upon the rise and fall of the sun and, if that's not the best ever example of universal communications, then I seriously don't know what is. Just because many of us humans think of sunlight as representing something purely that's a God given constant and instinctively worshiped as such, that doesn't mean that sunlight was being ignored as for communicating rather important information by those which chose and/or elected to utilize that illumination resource as communications tool, since UV spectrum can be collected and refocused (filtered if need be) and then transmitted in a desired direction, in nearly the same manner and results of what we have accomplish with lasers. Earth never much bothered with visual or UV communications until most recently, then we've utilized such for secret military operations or purely as weapons of death, by which any smart alien (lizardkind or otherwise) would most likely be avoiding contact with Earth if they realized what was best for their survival (it's obviously going to be all that much harder to identify alien life if they don't wish to be discovered).

In order to artificially generate illumination on Venus, the prospects of applying relatively low amounts of electrons across a tiny gap is obviously going to afford a relatively good amount of xenon/arc illumination. Even via bio-illumination, the amounts of organic energy as to accommodate either chemical illumination and/or of producing an electrical discharge as ignition/excitation of that nifty CO2 should be another done deal, especially if that CO2 is sufficiently pure as well as toasty warm to start off with. Although, as within their season of nighttime, as being about as pitch black but also as crystal clear as one can imagine, the candela or lumen requirements and thereby the actual energy demands are going to be rather minimal, more so minimal if those occupants have ever studied anything Darwin, thereby evolved along with that magnitude 5 nightvision capability.

Thermonuclear packets:  This next grim consideration may at first strike you as a wee bit rash however, it's certainly right up NASA/NSA/DoD's dark alley as for communicating our dictatorial intentions onto whomever we think needs a swift kick in the butt, sort of exactly like our past and recent administrations's diplomacy tactics towards China and only temporarily disrupted by our focus upon "bin Laden" and now Iraq. This suggestion however is going to be one of those "one stone killing multiple birds" (literally), as sort of being utilized for the ultimate of communications solutions. First off, we already have precisely what the international disarmament treaties requested that we dispose of and, as for getting the attention of a difficult and/or stubborn sort of creature, there's certainly nothing like what a little applied nuclear physics has to offer. I'm thinking, we should have our resident warlord and his teams of crack cold-war wizards modify some of those older and somewhat illegal multiple warhead ICBM's for a new mission, that of transmitting our greeting or goodwill gesture (sort of like how we respected those Islamic Muslim's by arming Israel to the hilt with essentially high technology weapons of mass distruction), transmitting a truly noticeable morse coded message packet of "UP YOURS", via precisely timed nuclear packets of 50 megatonnes per bit or pulse ott to do this trick. By lobbing a few of these nifty nuclear message packets at Venus (configured as to transmit our rather forceful greeting at the altitude of say 20 km), we ott to seriously be getting the attention of whomever or whatever there is and, at the very same time ridding our stockpiles of those internationally banned weapons of truly mass distruction. For one good thing, there shouldn't be all that much communications background noise to contend with and best of all folks, we'll be pushing some of those serious ethnic buttons again, the sort of button pushing that got a few well occupied planes to bash into even more so occupied tall buildings and a few others planes to simply fall stricken out of the sky. So, if we should obtain a reply in the format of a seriously big rigid airship (perhaps pilotted by Islamic lizard folk) smashing into another occupied building or whatever, that sort of conclusion will certainly have confirmed our "first contact".

Consider this a test of your sanity;  If you somehow perceive or even think I'm the least bit serious about the above paragraph, then I'm not the mentally ill/sick person, as clearly you are.

Speaking a little further then I should upon evolution;  What do you suppose Uncle Darwin would have to say about a life force that was existing on a relatively warm planet that was about to go totally "greenhouse". Say if the planet were already cozy warm at 300K and then, year by year their climate was being pushed upward (sort of like Earth) by 0.1 degree K, as within 4000 years the environment was going to scale towards 700K (there's obviously not enough antiperspirant in the universe to derail that environment). Within Earth's formula of life cycle generations, that's but 160 opportunities to either improve your DNA or die sweating like a pig on the barbe, although perhaps the generation cycle of those on Venus was half that of Earth's, so at best we're looking at potentially 320 generations worth of opportunity to either evolve or die. Seeing how far forward or perhaps backwards humanity has come within Earth's environment, as over a similar period of time, it certainly looks as though Darwin's solutions (especially if boosted along via technology and/or Frankenstein genetics) could have managed to salvage at least the wealthiest or most influential of Venus butts.

What's entirely possible about Venus is perhaps this (if need be, in absolute spite of NASA);  instead of my seeing all this orchestrated opposition and subsequent delays along with whatever "spin" and "damage control", I would have expected all sorts of honest forthright efforts at scientific analysis and then serious focus/think-tank sort of things going on but, certainly not of the sort of intentional avoidance and/or bashing for the sake of suppressing truths and of whatever consequences. Because time (like 13 years worth of delay) has been an important issue (at least I'm not going to live forever). Whereas avoiding everything Venus is sort of like avoiding toilet paper; sooner or later things are going to get out of hand, as well as no one is going to be associated with you until you get that nasty butt thing corrected.